Egdlx leagues games start

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Ioth
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Egdlx leagues games start

Post by Ioth » June 15th, 2017, 8:28 am

So, why exactly are we giving both teams a ball and base at start?
Makes the early game rather boring imo,
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Re: Egdlx leagues games start

Post by Hunt for Blood » June 15th, 2017, 8:40 am

Ioth wrote:
June 15th, 2017, 8:28 am
So, why exactly are we giving both teams a ball and base at start?
Makes the early game rather boring imo,
^ this

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Re: Egdlx leagues games start

Post by Optimal » June 15th, 2017, 9:15 am

some how it does seem to make games start faster and are set up faster which gives less complication and randomness which are essential issues to deal with for competitive games. Shortening timer and bases would be another great improvement to make playing CTF styled games more attractive in this game.

Balls are in to give anchors support for not wanting to carry flags/being forcedropped. If you guys want to have more skill and tactic in the game remove balls from every league game.
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Re: Egdlx leagues games start

Post by gaZ » June 15th, 2017, 10:22 am

I discussed shortening flag timer but fc declined that for now. The bases are a hair shorter than normal at ~53 second flight time as well. Fc was also saying he was removing the ball in the next league for similar reasons SB posted.
I think the goal is to get league games setup as even as possible and to have shorter game lengths to possibly allow for best of 3 on game days.
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Re: Egdlx leagues games start

Post by Lee » June 15th, 2017, 11:45 am

Actually only reason balls are in egdl in the first place is because the league used to have thors and balls were there to simulate pub gameplay as much as possible and reduce effect of thors. At some point Egdl became most competitive league in EG and due to popular demand thors and ports were removed.
For some reason noone complained about balls and so they sort of always remained there. Honestly though, having them makes no sense, so removing them is a good initiative.
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Re: Egdlx leagues games start

Post by jaXen » June 15th, 2017, 2:03 pm

I agree with everything stated above. Remove balls, shorten flag timer so that games are shorter so that best of three on same day is possible.
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Re: Egdlx leagues games start

Post by Glyde1 » June 15th, 2017, 2:34 pm

Keep the balls seems to take more skill to keep them :lol:

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Re: Egdlx leagues games start

Post by Golfer. » June 15th, 2017, 2:40 pm

^ This is true. Just removing the balls from league 10 years later isn't going to do any good... it'll do quite the opposite

Think about how big of an advantage all of the laggers/forcers will now have. Games will end early to due people forcing their way through
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Re: Egdlx leagues games start

Post by Ioth » June 15th, 2017, 4:33 pm

Optimal wrote:
June 15th, 2017, 9:15 am
some how it does seem to make games start faster and are set up faster which gives less complication and randomness which are essential issues to deal with for competitive games. Shortening timer and bases would be another great improvement to make playing CTF styled games more attractive in this game.

Balls are in to give anchors support for not wanting to carry flags/being forcedropped. If you guys want to have more skill and tactic in the game remove balls from every league game.
To be honest I don't really see how it shortens game times, in the end, someone gets flags and you have to wait until their flag timer runs out. Also i don't see how complications and 'randomness' are essential for league games. In my opinion it's a testiment to a team's organisation, and teams without organisation will naturally get punished for it accordingly.
Gaz wrote:I discussed shortening flag timer but fc declined that for now. The bases are a hair shorter than normal at ~53 second flight time as well. Fc was also saying he was removing the ball in the next league for similar reasons SB posted.
I think the goal is to get league games setup as even as possible and to have shorter game lengths to possibly allow for best of 3 on game days.
This is a contradiction, setting teams up to be more evenly matched should provide longer games. Removing balls should shorten games because of fr chokes and to be honest I'm not sure how I feel about that. Not that I'm against shortening games, but winning/losing games due to random fr chokes is just a boring way to win and a frustrating way to lose.

The reason I'm actually opening this discussion is because I feel with these new settings the game will dumb down alot. Early game tactics will pretty much disappear (apart from force dropping, which is just what everyone does anyway) and quick individual decision making will have less of an impact (e.g. ballwarping when on the edge of the map). With these new settings flagging won't be much different then baseduel, because in the end, braindead rushing towards towards nme fr is all you have to do, so we might as well just host bdl. My point, let's just keep the old format, teams can rush for a base themselves (personally, I'm even for no symmetrical bases) and secure their own ball(s). And if they get punished for being too disorganized, fuck em, it's a fair result.
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Re: Egdlx leagues games start

Post by PAT » June 15th, 2017, 5:45 pm

Ioth wrote:
June 15th, 2017, 4:33 pm
Optimal wrote:
June 15th, 2017, 9:15 am
some how it does seem to make games start faster and are set up faster which gives less complication and randomness which are essential issues to deal with for competitive games. Shortening timer and bases would be another great improvement to make playing CTF styled games more attractive in this game.

Balls are in to give anchors support for not wanting to carry flags/being forcedropped. If you guys want to have more skill and tactic in the game remove balls from every league game.
To be honest I don't really see how it shortens game times, in the end, someone gets flags and you have to wait until their flag timer runs out. Also i don't see how complications and 'randomness' are essential for league games. In my opinion it's a testiment to a team's organisation, and teams without organisation will naturally get punished for it accordingly.
Gaz wrote:I discussed shortening flag timer but fc declined that for now. The bases are a hair shorter than normal at ~53 second flight time as well. Fc was also saying he was removing the ball in the next league for similar reasons SB posted.
I think the goal is to get league games setup as even as possible and to have shorter game lengths to possibly allow for best of 3 on game days.
This is a contradiction, setting teams up to be more evenly matched should provide longer games. Removing balls should shorten games because of fr chokes and to be honest I'm not sure how I feel about that. Not that I'm against shortening games, but winning/losing games due to random fr chokes is just a boring way to win and a frustrating way to lose.

The reason I'm actually opening this discussion is because I feel with these new settings the game will dumb down alot. Early game tactics will pretty much disappear (apart from force dropping, which is just what everyone does anyway) and quick individual decision making will have less of an impact (e.g. ballwarping when on the edge of the map). With these new settings flagging won't be much different then baseduel, because in the end, braindead rushing towards towards nme fr is all you have to do, so we might as well just host bdl. My point, let's just keep the old format, teams can rush for a base themselves (personally, I'm even for no symmetrical bases) and secure their own ball(s). And if they get punished for being too disorganized, fuck em, it's a fair result.
I agree 100% with what Ioth said.
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Re: Egdlx leagues games start

Post by Johnson » June 16th, 2017, 1:52 am

PAT wrote:
June 15th, 2017, 5:45 pm
Ioth wrote:
June 15th, 2017, 4:33 pm
Optimal wrote:
June 15th, 2017, 9:15 am
some how it does seem to make games start faster and are set up faster which gives less complication and randomness which are essential issues to deal with for competitive games. Shortening timer and bases would be another great improvement to make playing CTF styled games more attractive in this game.

Balls are in to give anchors support for not wanting to carry flags/being forcedropped. If you guys want to have more skill and tactic in the game remove balls from every league game.
To be honest I don't really see how it shortens game times, in the end, someone gets flags and you have to wait until their flag timer runs out. Also i don't see how complications and 'randomness' are essential for league games. In my opinion it's a testiment to a team's organisation, and teams without organisation will naturally get punished for it accordingly.
Gaz wrote:I discussed shortening flag timer but fc declined that for now. The bases are a hair shorter than normal at ~53 second flight time as well. Fc was also saying he was removing the ball in the next league for similar reasons SB posted.
I think the goal is to get league games setup as even as possible and to have shorter game lengths to possibly allow for best of 3 on game days.
This is a contradiction, setting teams up to be more evenly matched should provide longer games. Removing balls should shorten games because of fr chokes and to be honest I'm not sure how I feel about that. Not that I'm against shortening games, but winning/losing games due to random fr chokes is just a boring way to win and a frustrating way to lose.

The reason I'm actually opening this discussion is because I feel with these new settings the game will dumb down alot. Early game tactics will pretty much disappear (apart from force dropping, which is just what everyone does anyway) and quick individual decision making will have less of an impact (e.g. ballwarping when on the edge of the map). With these new settings flagging won't be much different then baseduel, because in the end, braindead rushing towards towards nme fr is all you have to do, so we might as well just host bdl. My point, let's just keep the old format, teams can rush for a base themselves (personally, I'm even for no symmetrical bases) and secure their own ball(s). And if they get punished for being too disorganized, fuck em, it's a fair result.
I agree 100% with what Ioth said.
^^^
It's exactly what I was trying to say to Fc and Gaz. These changes are making the game less extreme, especially the start.

I wouldn't be 100% against removing balls, FR's can still choke with/without balls, but the forced start I do not like.
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Re: Egdlx leagues games start

Post by stewie » June 16th, 2017, 5:36 am

Seems like gaz is just making whatever the fk changes he wants without telling anyone.

90% of population hates this change and you're still keeping it why? Who even told you this was a good idea

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Re: Egdlx leagues games start

Post by Optimal » June 16th, 2017, 6:25 am

Ioth wrote:
June 15th, 2017, 4:33 pm
Optimal wrote:
June 15th, 2017, 9:15 am
some how it does seem to make games start faster and are set up faster which gives less complication and randomness which are essential issues to deal with for competitive games. Shortening timer and bases would be another great improvement to make playing CTF styled games more attractive in this game.

Balls are in to give anchors support for not wanting to carry flags/being forcedropped. If you guys want to have more skill and tactic in the game remove balls from every league game.
To be honest I don't really see how it shortens game times, in the end, someone gets flags and you have to wait until their flag timer runs out. Also i don't see how complications and 'randomness' are essential for league games. In my opinion it's a testiment to a team's organisation, and teams without organisation will naturally get punished for it accordingly.
Gaz wrote:I discussed shortening flag timer but fc declined that for now. The bases are a hair shorter than normal at ~53 second flight time as well. Fc was also saying he was removing the ball in the next league for similar reasons SB posted.
I think the goal is to get league games setup as even as possible and to have shorter game lengths to possibly allow for best of 3 on game days.
This is a contradiction, setting teams up to be more evenly matched should provide longer games. Removing balls should shorten games because of fr chokes and to be honest I'm not sure how I feel about that. Not that I'm against shortening games, but winning/losing games due to random fr chokes is just a boring way to win and a frustrating way to lose.

The reason I'm actually opening this discussion is because I feel with these new settings the game will dumb down alot. Early game tactics will pretty much disappear (apart from force dropping, which is just what everyone does anyway) and quick individual decision making will have less of an impact (e.g. ballwarping when on the edge of the map). With these new settings flagging won't be much different then baseduel, because in the end, braindead rushing towards towards nme fr is all you have to do, so we might as well just host bdl. My point, let's just keep the old format, teams can rush for a base themselves (personally, I'm even for no symmetrical bases) and secure their own ball(s). And if they get punished for being too disorganized, fuck em, it's a fair result.
To the people who want to keep balls - Is it skillfull of you to spam bombs and not having to worry about gettin hit because you have ball protection? is that a tactic? or is that you being at your best? Let me tell you right now here, thats its not. You will simply never be the best you can be because you are used to playing with protection. One of the reason i never used cloak back in the day is because i wouldnt learn from it as my enemies wouldnt see me. nowadays i use it to fuck around a bit and just make people cry inside.(which i know you do) So how do you overcome ball protection? develop more gamesense, learn to watch your screen better, have swings that know how to shield you while still being effective, etc etc. It seems for you guys individual development and individual tactics is really low and it shows how little you actually know about the game. U dont have to be best in my opinion but what you guys do is look for the easy route which is pretty much unnaceptable for how much you guys talk. We all know most of you force/induce or atleast run som ebackground programs that use net so that you get unstable moments, where i am one of the rare players that actually tries to eliminate this unstableness in my network. get it?

What you all seem to misunderstand is that in order for a game to be succesfull and playable at any rate/time/condition etc... The game mechanics need to be simplified before we think about skill increasement/tactics, which are really individual traits and not a thing that affects everyone like the basic game mechanics, therefor its a bigger issue to look at and one that should be improved first. Sure after 20 years we are used to all the shit we had to deal with and adapted ourselves to make it work, but just cause you been shitting out your mouth for 20 years, doesnt mean you were doing it right.

Everyone playing here wants to see this game strive again, we all want improvement for this game and its players, yet you all want to hold on to formulas that basically are part of the reason why the game is dying. lets compare EG to CSGO(counter strike golbal offensive)

Game setup

CSGO - Click play, you will get placed in a team of 5/10 players, accept, play
EG - wait on logins, get in arena,make lineup, get on frequency, start game(staff needed), take base, get a ball, collect flags, set up temp, green up, forcedrop. Now the actuall game starts around 15 minutes later.

I actually wanted to do a more detailed comparism but i think this pretty much explains the issue. You see early game tactics are really trivial because if only look at ship 3 which in essence has 3 playing styles and each style also comes with a skill level in that particular style, For a 20 year old game/zone just the ships alone are complex in use as an individual already without taking any individual tactics into consideration. The games we play are alrdy complex enough if you take it to the next level and removing minor things that do not affect the end game at all will improve the quality

randomness is the biggest gamekiller in history because you cant learn randomness. Theres no pattern that you can learn and practice. Lets see how many random things we encounter while playing, or lets just go over the ones we deal with at the start of games.

Spawning - We never spawn on the same spot and never face the same direction.
ShipStatus - Always different sometimes its similar tho but still random
weapons - random levels
items - random
energy - random
greens - random
ball spawn - random
flags - random

As you can see, everything in this zone is mostly random. Let me make it clear to you that the only way you can succeed with randomness is by luck. So your early game tactics are basically based on luck. You hope to get lucky with ballspawns, then get lucky the rest too in order to succeed. But you forget that individual skill and game sense are more important here than your tactics, as you cant base tactics on random events, its a momentum you have to adjust too and respond to it with your own skillset. Therefor early game tactics as mentioned by some of yall are probaly the least important aspects in this game if you want to succeed, but also want the game to succeed. You can have all the tactics you want, if u dont have the skill or game sense, your tactics will get crushed, therefor its way more crucial to create an enviroment that requires more skill than tactic, because with the increasement of skill, the tactical insight and game sense of a player will also increase.

Having less trivial moments to deal with like we have to deal with in EG will surely motivate for more use of skill, which is what you want as a competitive game, newcomers want to play, not study this. dealing with low vp players will be alot easier too if their tasks are simplified.
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Re: Egdlx leagues games start

Post by gaZ » June 16th, 2017, 8:24 am

stewie wrote:
June 16th, 2017, 5:36 am
Seems like gaz is just making whatever the fk changes he wants without telling anyone.

90% of population hates this change and you're still keeping it why? Who even told you this was a good idea

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Re: Egdlx leagues games start

Post by TheCript » June 16th, 2017, 8:54 am

take balls out, shorten flag timer
shorten basesize
decrease the chance of getting big recharges
make it best of 3



make it purely based on skill
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Re: Egdlx leagues games start

Post by dreownsu » June 16th, 2017, 11:08 am

base's will get hero'd all the time. Just last game, BlackMamba was flanking us, i was flank swing and eel was trying to hero at the same time so i was switching between fronts. I didnt get to AM right away every time but he had the ball. Having no balls will increase the possibility of this tactic winning games.
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Re: Egdlx leagues games start

Post by EEL » June 16th, 2017, 11:38 am

Keep the balls and flag timer as the same. Seriously if you want to host next league with these adjusted settings feel free. Don't ruin something that's going good. As for BlackMamba Vs Fiery Poops we had a very good game with these settings.


If you're considering the changes gaz let's vote it. (GMS)
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Re: Egdlx leagues games start

Post by dreownsu » June 16th, 2017, 11:08 pm

EEL wrote:
June 16th, 2017, 11:38 am
Keep the balls and flag timer as the same. Seriously if you want to host next league with these adjusted settings feel free. Don't ruin something that's going good. As for BlackMamba Vs Fiery Poops we had a very good game with these settings.


If you're considering the changes gaz let's vote it. (GMS)
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Re: Egdlx leagues games start

Post by MracY » June 17th, 2017, 2:45 am

Why take out balls? You actually want every game to end in 30 minutes by random fr choke? Or Eel using eel.exe and teleporting behind anchor? Gtfo. People continue playing a game if they feel good playing it. Maybe if eg had a population of 10000 so anchors were decent, but without balls every game would end hugely unsatisfyingly.

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Re: Egdlx leagues games start

Post by pocho » June 17th, 2017, 5:17 am

dont touch my balls, ty

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Re: Egdlx leagues games start

Post by Ioth » June 17th, 2017, 8:03 am

Optimal wrote:
June 16th, 2017, 6:25 am
To the people who want to keep balls - Is it skillfull of you to spam bombs and not having to worry about gettin hit because you have ball protection? is that a tactic? or is that you being at your best? Let me tell you right now here, thats its not. You will simply never be the best you can be because you are used to playing with protection. One of the reason i never used cloak back in the day is because i wouldnt learn from it as my enemies wouldnt see me. nowadays i use it to fuck around a bit and just make people cry inside.(which i know you do) So how do you overcome ball protection? develop more gamesense, learn to watch your screen better, have swings that know how to shield you while still being effective, etc etc. It seems for you guys individual development and individual tactics is really low and it shows how little you actually know about the game. U dont have to be best in my opinion but what you guys do is look for the easy route which is pretty much unnaceptable for how much you guys talk. We all know most of you force/induce or atleast run som ebackground programs that use net so that you get unstable moments, where i am one of the rare players that actually tries to eliminate this unstableness in my network. get it?
Can't really tell if that comment was directed to me personally, cause I'm a swing on my team this EGDL. Other then that, even though I do agree anchorring with a ball takes more skill to a certain degree, you can't disagree with me that keeping the ball is a type of skill involved, not only for the anchor, but swings themselves have to be aware of that aswell (and I have so many trauma's to swing losing my ball lol). I don't really see what you're trying to say with the rest of the above, it doesn't seem to relevant for me regarding the current discussion we're having
Optimal wrote: What you all seem to misunderstand is that in order for a game to be succesfull and playable at any rate/time/condition etc... The game mechanics need to be simplified before we think about skill increasement/tactics, which are really individual traits and not a thing that affects everyone like the basic game mechanics, therefor its a bigger issue to look at and one that should be improved first. Sure after 20 years we are used to all the shit we had to deal with and adapted ourselves to make it work, but just cause you been shitting out your mouth for 20 years, doesnt mean you were doing it right.

Everyone playing here wants to see this game strive again, we all want improvement for this game and its players, yet you all want to hold on to formulas that basically are part of the reason why the game is dying. lets compare EG to CSGO(counter strike golbal offensive)

Game setup

CSGO - Click play, you will get placed in a team of 5/10 players, accept, play
EG - wait on logins, get in arena,make lineup, get on frequency, start game(staff needed), take base, get a ball, collect flags, set up temp, green up, forcedrop. Now the actuall game starts around 15 minutes later.

I actually wanted to do a more detailed comparism but i think this pretty much explains the issue. You see early game tactics are really trivial because if only look at ship 3 which in essence has 3 playing styles and each style also comes with a skill level in that particular style, For a 20 year old game/zone just the ships alone are complex in use as an individual already without taking any individual tactics into consideration. The games we play are alrdy complex enough if you take it to the next level and removing minor things that do not affect the end game at all will improve the quality
This would be more relevant in my opinion if we would be talking about the current pub situation, because yes, accessibility is important. However we're not talking about random sit & go games, but this is regarding egdlx.
Optimal wrote: randomness is the biggest gamekiller in history because you cant learn randomness. Theres no pattern that you can learn and practice. Lets see how many random things we encounter while playing, or lets just go over the ones we deal with at the start of games.

Spawning - We never spawn on the same spot and never face the same direction.
ShipStatus - Always different sometimes its similar tho but still random
weapons - random levels
items - random
energy - random
greens - random
ball spawn - random
flags - random

As you can see, everything in this zone is mostly random. Let me make it clear to you that the only way you can succeed with randomness is by luck. So your early game tactics are basically based on luck. You hope to get lucky with ballspawns, then get lucky the rest too in order to succeed. But you forget that individual skill and game sense are more important here than your tactics, as you cant base tactics on random events, its a momentum you have to adjust too and respond to it with your own skillset. Therefor early game tactics as mentioned by some of yall are probaly the least important aspects in this game if you want to succeed, but also want the game to succeed.
Though I'll agree that rng is involved in this game as you mentioned, I don't agree it's as much of a downer as you're saying. The impact of rng is generally not as big, and besides you can definitely play around a lot of it (fr anchors playing around rep spots as an example). Ball spawns at the start are harder to control I agree, but it's still something a team can work with. Spreading out and communication all ready help out a lot, and individual skill can surely make an impact on the result.

Other then that, if randomness was such a downer, we wouldn't see games like poker be more popular then chess. Not too mention there are a whole bunch of other very popular games that involve a great deal of rng.
Optimal wrote: You can have all the tactics you want, if u dont have the skill or game sense, your tactics will get crushed, therefor its way more crucial to create an enviroment that requires more skill than tactic, because with the increasement of skill, the tactical insight and game sense of a player will also increase.
EG has always been about skill more then tactics, the suggestions here do not change that. I'm scared of having no chance for tactics at all, which just dumbs down the game.
Optimal wrote: Having less trivial moments to deal with like we have to deal with in EG will surely motivate for more use of skill, which is what you want as a competitive game, newcomers want to play, not study this. dealing with low vp players will be alot easier too if their tasks are simplified.
Finally, I don't really see how having no form of tactics demotivates people to become a skilled player.
MracY wrote:
June 17th, 2017, 2:45 am
Why take out balls? You actually want every game to end in 30 minutes by random fr choke? Or Eel using eel.exe and teleporting behind anchor? Gtfo. People continue playing a game if they feel good playing it. Maybe if eg had a population of 10000 so anchors were decent, but without balls every game would end hugely unsatisfyingly.
This pretty much sums up why I'm against removing balls. If the average level of anchors in EG was higher I wouldn't have a problem with it, but the past few years I've won/lost so many league games to fr chokes, it just isn't fun.
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Re: Egdlx leagues games start

Post by Optimal » June 18th, 2017, 5:31 am

ill reply later



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Re: Egdlx leagues games start

Post by TheCript » June 18th, 2017, 5:59 am

can someone make a summary for me please?
Fc> how old are you again?
TheCript> 24
TheCript> sup?
Fc> you sure you didn't mistype and you actually wanted to type 14?

^^ the level of trolling fc is stuck at ^^

Hunt for Blood
Level 3
Posts: 118
Joined: April 9th, 2005, 7:05 am

Re: Egdlx leagues games start

Post by Hunt for Blood » June 18th, 2017, 7:14 am

I'm not sure why people feel ending game to a fr choke is a bad way to win/lose?(fr lagging/accidental warps ofcourse ruin games)
Maybe teams that have that problem should go back to fr+front format to prevent it from happening that often. Or stationary fr. Usually the fr choke is combined with a good play from the offence so I don't really see it as unfair way to win/lose.
H4B
2 EGFL wins (5 time finalist)
2 EGDL wins
1 BDL wins
Best new player at top 2005.
Nominee for best aggressive attacker 2009.

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Ioth
Level 5
Posts: 1214
Joined: June 24th, 2005, 12:35 pm

Re: Egdlx leagues games start

Post by Ioth » June 18th, 2017, 7:29 am

Hunt for Blood wrote:
June 18th, 2017, 7:14 am
I'm not sure why people feel ending game to a fr choke is a bad way to win/lose?(fr lagging/accidental warps ofcourse ruin games)
Maybe teams that have that problem should go back to fr+front format to prevent it from happening that often. Or stationary fr. Usually the fr choke is combined with a good play from the offence so I don't really see it as unfair way to win/lose.
Obviously I can't speak for everyone :p But for me, no matter if win/loss, it's because the game is determined by the performance of 1 man. It gives me the feeling that no matter what I did it wouldn't have had an impact on the game anyway. And losing to chokes is just plain frustrating.
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