SSCU Extreme Games

Part of the Subspace Continuum network.

Moderators: Pynk!, lv

New bases?

yes
8
53%
no
7
47%
User avatar
By Lee
#513278
Hey!

Main season is finally over and apart from all the drama, it has been quite interesting, but ultimately i think this league holds one the highest % of games ending up in a tie. Unless fr chokes, lags or GM takes unnecessary risks, it is quite easy to just play for a tie, even with a bad show.
Main reason here is not that teams are so equal, but its more down to the bases and especially how the FRs are built. With proper bomblines its almost impossible to take some of them with 7v8 full attack. And in all, bases are way too narrow as well, it takes tempo away from game.
Winner of main season tied 3 out of their 5 games, all teams ending up in spots 2-4 tied 2 games. Its not normal. Our game vs Amphs team was about to end in a tie as well after we had full attacked good 90 minutes. Todays game vs Monty also showed that u can just full defend and end up in a tie if u want to, no matter if u have a bad showup or lagouts.

With normal playoffs, it wouldnt be an issue, because although games can last 10 hours, eventually someone chokes. With the proposed second main season, its a big issue though. With every point counting now, no GMs will take any risks. I would bet my money on all games during this second phase ending in a tie, unless really some bad luck or chokes or whatever happen.

So here is my proposal. Change bases for second main season and finals. Either use some older egdl map or use some new bases i dont care. All teams start from 0 they all have same chances to get to know the bases. Make them wider and frs not so hard and we will see much more interesting second phase, otherwise, it will be just bunch of ties again :(
By Whale
#513279
Second main season? Do you mean playoff rounds? I don't like the idea of changing up the game this far Into it. I say pony up for a 10 hour game and be ready! I read in the rules earlier that games will be played back to back on Sunday without a tie and if there's a 3rd forced game, it can be played the week after
By Monty Python
#513281
well, first of all there have been quite some changes in the league, so why not continue making league more interesting. lee has a point with all those tie's taking place. with some rly nice new bases league definitely would get some fresh air and since schedule extends due to eastern aswell, we could basically do it. its up to squads then if they get used to new bases soon enought, so its a matter of activity too there, but that doesnt have to be a problem. azela did a fine job with the current bases, maybe he finds the will and time to make 4 new bases, if he even likes this idea at all. i'd generally like it so far.

more opinions?
By Monty Python
#513290
Azela wrote:The ties have nothing to do with the bases and changing them now would be a bad idea.

1) Teams have been very evenly matched this year, only 1 team was clearly weaker.
2) Many teams have been playing for ties, you can't play for a tie in playoffs.
3) These frs are not that tight. Many 10v10 egfl frs were as tight, if not tighter.
4) Learning the bases is part of the strategy, changing them now would be unfair.
1) right
2) not sure. isnt it still about pts so that a tie might bring benefit?
3) i agree
4) its no unfair, all squads just have to do it again and have same amount of time to get new bases to know.

anyways, i dont even wanna argue too much for new bases. just found the idea nice.
By Qdisc
#513304
I would love new bases.

The current bases will cause games to run way too long. I don't want games to be won through the team who can field eight people at 50vp after five hours.

However, if the bases gets swapped. I'd prefer them to be bases people already know. As well as doing it early in the week so that anchors have some time to practice.
User avatar
By Lee
#513306
Azela wrote:The ties have nothing to do with the bases and changing them now would be a bad idea.

1) Teams have been very evenly matched this year, only 1 team was clearly weaker.
2) Many teams have been playing for ties, you can't play for a tie in playoffs.
3) These frs are not that tight. Many 10v10 egfl frs were as tight, if not tighter.
4) Learning the bases is part of the strategy, changing them now would be unfair.
1) i beg to differ, last time i recall a league having so many ties was in egfl 6, when trespass was so far above any other squad, yet again, almost all other top squads managed to tie the games in main season, because it was so easy to hold fr's. I remember spending good 2 hours at mut fr, just the game to end in a tie. Just as we did last Sunday in game vs Montys team. This does not mean squads are so equal, it means that its not hard to not lose a game.
2) if we use the second main-season playoff system, we could all end up tieing each other, because its not worth the risk in losing.
All i am saying here is that i dont want bunch of 5+ hour games that will be decided upon stamina of people, rather than their skill as a team
3) Once again, with 10 people, you attack FR 9v10, making the effect of being 1 man down smaller (you are only missing 1/10 of your potential strength), with 8v8, taking similar fr with 7v8 is much more difficult.
4) I dont see how its unfair as all teams would start from scratch.
User avatar
By Lee
#513307
Oh and btw, this idea is only if we are going to use the second main season idea, if its just regular playoffs, have 1 game and be done with it, no need to change bases for just 2 games.
By MCI
#513320
The best team can easily adapt to new bases. I played these bases for the first time last weekend, and have had no issue owning them. They are entirely too tight though, and they have the same issue that doomsy's EGBDL bases had - they are nothing but one long bombline through most of each base. It's so fking boring. If a team is obviously better and can full attack for 95% of a game, they should be able to win without spending 1 1/2 hours infront of the FR. I don't have 5 hours to spend in a match anymore, and I'm sure that I'm not the only one.
By Monty Python
#513322
MCI wrote:The best team can easily adapt to new bases. I played these bases for the first time last weekend, and have had no issue owning them. They are entirely too tight though, and they have the same issue that doomsy's EGBDL bases had - they are nothing but one long bombline through most of each base. It's so fking boring. If a team is obviously better and can full attack for 95% of a game, they should be able to win without spending 1 1/2 hours infront of the FR. I don't have 5 hours to spend in a match anymore, and I'm sure that I'm not the only one.
i think the status of the bases as beeing all too tight and "nothing but one long bombline" is overrated here. they were made for 8v8, while 10v10 bases always have been slightly more open. due to 8v8 its harder to play with numbers now, effectively mobbing with more then just 1 pilot is hard now, while with 10 player u could tryout more. lee kinda implied that in his post.

i'd like new bases for the fresh air its brings. i dont think it would change too much tho, teams are (!) at present very even, thats still a huge point when its about this whole tie'ing stuff. and i dont think even more open bases would cahnge the possibility of "ez" accomplishable tie's. but who knows, maybe its just the little dynamic breaker it needs to be a bit different and create more "room" from it, strategically speaking.


ps: lol @ "I played these bases for the first time last weekend, and have had no issue owning them." mci i was dissapointed in ur so called shark skills. forcing me into lanc was the only thing u rly archieved there.
By MCI
#513323
Monty Python wrote:
MCI wrote:The best team can easily adapt to new bases. I played these bases for the first time last weekend, and have had no issue owning them. They are entirely too tight though, and they have the same issue that doomsy's EGBDL bases had - they are nothing but one long bombline through most of each base. It's so fking boring. If a team is obviously better and can full attack for 95% of a game, they should be able to win without spending 1 1/2 hours infront of the FR. I don't have 5 hours to spend in a match anymore, and I'm sure that I'm not the only one.
i think the status of the bases as beeing all too tight and "nothing but one long bombline" is overrated here. they were made for 8v8, while 10v10 bases always have been slightly more open. due to 8v8 its harder to play with numbers now, effectively mobbing with more then just 1 pilot is hard now, while with 10 player u could tryout more. lee kinda implied that in his post.

i'd like new bases for the fresh air its brings. i dont think it would change too much tho, teams are (!) at present very even, thats still a huge point when its about this whole tie'ing stuff. and i dont think even more open bases would cahnge the possibility of "ez" accomplishable tie's. but who knows, maybe its just the little dynamic breaker it needs to be a bit different and create more "room" from it, strategically speaking.

Didn't you guys full defend for 1 hour and 45 minutes rofl. Saved by FR is the name of the game.


ps: lol @ "I played these bases for the first time last weekend, and have had no issue owning them." mci i was dissapointed in ur so called shark skills. forcing me into lanc was the only thing u rly archieved there.
By MCI
#513324
Monty Python wrote:
MCI wrote:The best team can easily adapt to new bases. I played these bases for the first time last weekend, and have had no issue owning them. They are entirely too tight though, and they have the same issue that doomsy's EGBDL bases had - they are nothing but one long bombline through most of each base. It's so fking boring. If a team is obviously better and can full attack for 95% of a game, they should be able to win without spending 1 1/2 hours infront of the FR. I don't have 5 hours to spend in a match anymore, and I'm sure that I'm not the only one.
i think the status of the bases as beeing all too tight and "nothing but one long bombline" is overrated here. they were made for 8v8, while 10v10 bases always have been slightly more open. due to 8v8 its harder to play with numbers now, effectively mobbing with more then just 1 pilot is hard now, while with 10 player u could tryout more. lee kinda implied that in his post.

i'd like new bases for the fresh air its brings. i dont think it would change too much tho, teams are (!) at present very even, thats still a huge point when its about this whole tie'ing stuff. and i dont think even more open bases would cahnge the possibility of "ez" accomplishable tie's. but who knows, maybe its just the little dynamic breaker it needs to be a bit different and create more "room" from it, strategically speaking.

ps: lol @ "I played these bases for the first time last weekend, and have had no issue owning them." mci i was dissapointed in ur so called shark skills. forcing me into lanc was the only thing u rly archieved there.

Didn't you guys full defend for 1 hour and 45 minutes rofl. Saved by FR is the name of the game.
By Monty Python
#513325
MCI wrote:
Monty Python wrote:
MCI wrote:The best team can easily adapt to new bases. I played these bases for the first time last weekend, and have had no issue owning them. They are entirely too tight though, and they have the same issue that doomsy's EGBDL bases had - they are nothing but one long bombline through most of each base. It's so fking boring. If a team is obviously better and can full attack for 95% of a game, they should be able to win without spending 1 1/2 hours infront of the FR. I don't have 5 hours to spend in a match anymore, and I'm sure that I'm not the only one.
i think the status of the bases as beeing all too tight and "nothing but one long bombline" is overrated here. they were made for 8v8, while 10v10 bases always have been slightly more open. due to 8v8 its harder to play with numbers now, effectively mobbing with more then just 1 pilot is hard now, while with 10 player u could tryout more. lee kinda implied that in his post.

i'd like new bases for the fresh air its brings. i dont think it would change too much tho, teams are (!) at present very even, thats still a huge point when its about this whole tie'ing stuff. and i dont think even more open bases would cahnge the possibility of "ez" accomplishable tie's. but who knows, maybe its just the little dynamic breaker it needs to be a bit different and create more "room" from it, strategically speaking.

ps: lol @ "I played these bases for the first time last weekend, and have had no issue owning them." mci i was dissapointed in ur so called shark skills. forcing me into lanc was the only thing u rly archieved there.

Didn't you guys full defend for 1 hour and 45 minutes rofl. Saved by FR is the name of the game.
so...?
User avatar
By Lee
#513339
Azela wrote:Call me a cynic, but historically Lee cannot stay for very long during matches, so I suppose it would suit him if matches were shorter.
Umm it would suit every person who has life outside this game. You really think that eg community as it is now really enjoys playing 10 hours in a row? Most of us have lifes outside this game...
Not to mention for me games start 9-10pm on Sunday, as i go to work every monday, there is a limit on how long i will bother staying up.
Its really ridiculous you bring this up as a point in 2014...
User avatar
By Lee
#513344
Azela wrote:I just got the feeling that this idea was predominantly driven by self-interest. Anyway, I don't believe there's been a 10+ hour game since Mut was around,so I think you're exaggerating a touch. I do understand your point, I just think that play-offs are supposed to be epic battles, 1-4 hours is quite normal in past leagues. If players aren't able to play that long then realistically they should think twice about entering a league.

I'd like to respond to a few points that you made.
last time i recall a league having so many ties was in egfl 6
That was when Mutiny was around. Also, I've seen many leagues with tight bases and there weren't a huge amount of ties so I think we can put that theory to bed. It is most likely due to the evenness of the teams this year.
if we use the second main-season playoff system, we could all end up tieing each other, because its not worth the risk in losing.
Correct, which is another reason why there shouldn't be a 2nd league.
I dont see how its unfair as all teams would start from scratch.
It is unfair to create new bases because the squads have been practicing and perfecting the current bases. Some squads and players may have taken extra time to master the current bases. It would be unfair to undo their work, which might give them an advantage over the lazier squads and players.
fact is this:
this egdl we have had 5 ties and 5 non-ties in main season
last egdl the number was 6 ties and 12 games without
year before it was 1 tie and 6 without

And forgive me, but equal teams has nothing to do with it, egdl has had equal teams throughout its history. 1 thing definitely changing it has been removal of thors and ports, but current bases compared to last year are much more tight and harder to take, especially fr rooms. And no its not for my personal good, i just dont want to sit 4 hours at nme fr, nor do i want to defend 4 hours at my own fr in full defense, bases are not balanced, they favour defenders too much in 8v8 situation where full defense is favoured anyways...

We have changed bases midseason before and it made things more fun (i remember some baseduel league, where bases were not good, after change it went much better), if some team has made an effort in learning the bases, it has also granted it access to playoffs, in order to further advance, they need to make more effort in learning new bases. I dont see how thats unfair, we are entering completely different stage of this league.
By Monty Python
#513354
Lee wrote:
We have changed bases midseason before and it made things more fun (i remember some baseduel league, where bases were not good, after change it went much better), if some team has made an effort in learning the bases, it has also granted it access to playoffs, in order to further advance, they need to make more effort in learning new bases. I dont see how thats unfair, we are entering completely different stage of this league.
true, its no unfair at all. no1 get an advantage by new bases.
User avatar
By Lee
#513358
Azela wrote:I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree on that one because I don't see how you can say that taking the time and effort to master the bases should only grant you access to the playoffs and no further.

I remember in Exalt Sentenal went to great lengths to perfect the bases. He would upload maps with bomblines added to the bases and we'd spend a lot of time going through them. To throw that effort away and give the lazier squads a chance to catch back up is completely unfair in my opinion.

It's inevitable that some leagues will get more ties than others, whatever the cause. Imagine in football, you have more ties than usual. What would the prem or la liga do? Make the pitch bigger? Make the goals bigger? It's not the pitch, it's usually the way the teams play that effect the outcome.

Also, I just went through the results for EGFL 6 which you claim had a load of ties.

Total Games: 49
Total Wins: 39
Total Ties: 10
Did you just completely ignored what i said? EGFL6 is relevant ONLY for me because i played in Trespass and we tied more or less every other top squad, while in fact, considering roster and capabilities noone was even close to us. I do not remember how other games went. In any case EGFL6 is not the case here, EGFL has always had top squads and weaker squads and even with lame bases top squads still beat low-tier squads.
Please instead look what i wrote about last 3 egdls which are most relevant because playerbase is similar in those leagues and egdl has always had more equal teams. It has gone horribly wrong.
And actually its funny how you mention football, which is a sport of long traditions and even in football, rules have been changed. There actually was the case with too many games ending goalless and with penalties, hence golden-goal rule was created, later silver goal. Even in football, which people have played with 150 years, there still have been rule changes if something is wrong.
And you are correct, some leagues have more ties and the cause in this one is that its the bases that do not suit 8v8 flagging as they have too easily defendable FRs.

As for praccing, yea nice that u mention sentenal. Now you want to tell me that you actually have done what sentenal did in egfl? Have you uploaded maps with all bomblines and pracced daily on those? I beg to differ.
BUt hey we have 4 GMs here left in league, me and monty support new bases, u dont, if vodka says no, LV decides, if vodka says yes, we get new bases? Sounds fair?
By lv
#513359
This topic is confusing me because of the vote in the other topic.

Other topic, the vote says keep playoffs the same as always:

1v4
2v3
Then finals on April 6th.

<shrug> I'm going to set the schedule. I was really hoping for another mini league, but it isn't happening. :cry:
By establishment
#513367
Lee wrote:And actually its funny how you mention football, which is a sport of long traditions and even in football, rules have been changed. There actually was the case with too many games ending goalless and with penalties, hence golden-goal rule was created, later silver goal. Even in football, which people have played with 150 years, there still have been rule changes if something is wrong.
Golden goal has nothing to do with amount of goals but rather whether it tied in a 1 game playoff, which is about 0.5% of all games a year. A game can end in 4-4 and still go to over-time where golden rule will take affect (Liverpool - Alaves of 2001). But even that was canceled and now you just play the full 120 minutes. In fact the golden goal caused teams to worry about defense first and offense later and emphasis was placed on not conceding so eventually the rule was abolished for defeating its own purpose. There have been a few years when boring cynical reactive football has dominated europe (most notably Greece's 2004 euro title) but no one changed pitch size or goal size. Rather football has evolved on its own merit (some thanks to Barca) into the possession based or quick counter based football we see today.
150 years old rules can grow archaic and need to be refined for a more modern age but rules have nothing to do with changing bases (which correlate to pitch size, 24yard box size maybe etc) so this whole analogy is irrelavent anyway...

Speaking strictly on-topic, personally I would have liked to see a change of map just for sheer diversity but we are now 4 days away from the first game and it's too late to change them now for squads to learn. Most of all, if new bases are installed they should be new ones because it is unfair for new players (MFR's mostly) to have to learn new bases whilst other players may have played in them before.

If I may go back to talking about football, this week's El Classico has strengthened my belief that the penalty rule should be changed. You trip a player with a, lets say, 70% chance of scoring (sometimes much less) and in return the fouled player received a penalty (around 80% chance of scoring - over 90% if your shooter is Messi) and a red card for the fouler. I don't have an idea for a revision yet that wouldn't be too open for interpertation and thus cause much turmoil but something has to change.
User avatar
By Lee
#513371
Azela wrote:Since you have said absolutely nothing to counter any of my arguments, I'll just leave it there.
maybe you should have presented some arguments then?
For example:
2012 egdl 13 wins/losses 1 tie (8 squads)
2013 egdl 12 wins 6 ties (6 squads doublemainseason)
2014 egdl 5 wins 5 ties (6 squads)

You dont see the trend? Thats an argument presented with a fact, from 7% of games being a tie to 50%. Its not something random, its a clear change in the game, apart from settings, bases can influence the game most because playerbase has been pretty intact for years already.

You only presented some vague guess that some leaders have spent more time praccing the base. Have you done it? Do you want me to ask your squaddies if you have specially made maps where you prac bomblines and what not? etc

In any case this discussion seems to be pretty irrelevant at this stage as LV already decided that we will ahve just 2 more games and i do agree that changing bases for only 2 games makes no sense. So you can close this topic.
User avatar
By Lee
#513372
establishment wrote:
Lee wrote:And actually its funny how you mention football, which is a sport of long traditions and even in football, rules have been changed. There actually was the case with too many games ending goalless and with penalties, hence golden-goal rule was created, later silver goal. Even in football, which people have played with 150 years, there still have been rule changes if something is wrong.
Golden goal has nothing to do with amount of goals but rather whether it tied in a 1 game playoff, which is about 0.5% of all games a year. A game can end in 4-4 and still go to over-time where golden rule will take affect (Liverpool - Alaves of 2001). But even that was canceled and now you just play the full 120 minutes. In fact the golden goal caused teams to worry about defense first and offense later and emphasis was placed on not conceding so eventually the rule was abolished for defeating its own purpose. There have been a few years when boring cynical reactive football has dominated europe (most notably Greece's 2004 euro title) but no one changed pitch size or goal size. Rather football has evolved on its own merit (some thanks to Barca) into the possession based or quick counter based football we see today.
150 years old rules can grow archaic and need to be refined for a more modern age but rules have nothing to do with changing bases (which correlate to pitch size, 24yard box size maybe etc) so this whole analogy is irrelavent anyway...

Speaking strictly on-topic, personally I would have liked to see a change of map just for sheer diversity but we are now 4 days away from the first game and it's too late to change them now for squads to learn. Most of all, if new bases are installed they should be new ones because it is unfair for new players (MFR's mostly) to have to learn new bases whilst other players may have played in them before.

If I may go back to talking about football, this week's El Classico has strengthened my belief that the penalty rule should be changed. You trip a player with a, lets say, 70% chance of scoring (sometimes much less) and in return the fouled player received a penalty (around 80% chance of scoring - over 90% if your shooter is Messi) and a red card for the fouler. I don't have an idea for a revision yet that wouldn't be too open for interpertation and thus cause much turmoil but something has to change.
Actually it has a lot to do with games having not enough goals. I think it was after World Cup 1990, where all the big games had either 1-0 or 0-0 and penalties, after what FIFA decided to try it. I didnt say anywhere that it had the desired effect and you are correct, if anything teams became even more defense-oriented because of it. I only brought it up, because azela brought up a stupid and wrong comparsion between a dying online game and most popular sports in the world.
By Qdisc
#513381
Well... a lot of the pick up games in EGDL are relatively short. Almost all <2h.

I know you don't play the same way in those. But if it was extremely easy to hold, wouldn't we see a lot longer pick ups as well?
By Monty Python
#513383
Azela wrote:
I think you may have missed the point. It doesn't matter what method you use to master the bases. What matters is that the team who takes the effort to do so gives themselves an advantage. You would seek to unfairly take that advantage away from them.
yes, u take that away. but its not unfair. potentionally, u take it away from everyone. u sorta punish teams who have worked more for it, but those already archieved semi's (or not). u have a wrong understanding of fairness here. a change equally made for everyone will never be unfair.
User avatar
By Lee
#513387
Azela wrote:
Lee wrote: dont see the trend? Thats an argument presented with a fact, from 7% of games being a tie to 50%. Its not something random, its a clear change in the game, apart from settings, bases can influence the game most because playerbase has been pretty intact for years already.
This fits perfectly with what I have already said. Teams this year have been playing more conservatively. In EGDL 2013, teams played each other twice. This year, due to less games, it made sense for teams to play more cautiously. I certainly took that approach, and I would expect that other teams have done the same.

Also, like QD has mentioned, pickups haven't been long games because the issue is not the tightness of the bases, it's the way the teams have been playing and also the evenness of the teams.
You only presented some vague guess that some leaders have spent more time praccing the base. Have you done it? Do you want me to ask your squaddies if you have specially made maps where you prac bomblines and what not? etc
I think you may have missed the point. It doesn't matter what method you use to master the bases. What matters is that the team who takes the effort to do so gives themselves an advantage. You would seek to unfairly take that advantage away from them.
Its not about tactics if team can pretty easily survive sitting in full defense for 2 hours. You are telling me that if this would have been last year, monty would have just abandoned his base and gung hod mine. Sure
There is a difference between taking risks (which i did in game vs so brave for example) and just not being able to take a weaker team in 2 hours due to fr being setup in the way they are.
Its not only my team as well, as much as i saw first hour of Still i rise and LVs boobs, SIR had weakened roster in the beginning as well, but still had no real issues keeping base intact, same amphs team which never managed to win a game did quite hell holding his own in several games just by full defending.

You keep forgetting who you are talking to. I have played in every goddamn egdl and egfl in history of this zone and FRs in top right and bot left bases are one of the worst to break with 8v8 ive ever seen in league games. If you like it or not is another case.
User avatar
By Lee
#513394
Azela wrote:Again, you haven't really dealt with any of my arguments. If you want to prove that tight bases alone cause excessive ties then you need to produce some form of evidence.

If you look at EGFL 2013, the bases are as tight, or perhaps even tighter than EGDL 2014 bases. Yet, in EGFL 2013 there was only 1 tie all season. Why? Because EGFL squads were not as even. What other explanation is there? Also, if you look at the squads who tied each other in EGFL 2013 it was the two squads who made finals in the end. Because they were evenly matched.

It's the evenness of the teams, coupled with their game style which leads to a tie. Does a tight base also play a role? Of course. But not to the degree which you are claiming.
EGDL squads have always been more even compared to EGFL squads. Thats why comparing EGDL TO EGFL is not relevant. Which is why i compared this EGDL to previous EGDLs and differences are huge, way bigger then they would be just becuase teams could be a bit more equal this season.
I didnt say that that tight base is the ONLY factor, i said its one of the biggest ones, there are other things which do determine the number of ties. Its just the first league in history of eg where 50% of games have been ties...
And its not evenness of teams, out of 2 hours vs Monty, my team spent 1hr and 40 minutes near their fr unable to break in while home was clear id say at least 1 hour out of full time (they had a few attacks). This does not represent a game of 2 equal sides, where if 1 side does full defense they clear home easily. This represents unbalanced base setup and too tight fr.

But like i said again, this discussion is pointless now as we will not have new bases, lv can you lock this topic?
By MCI
#513403
Lee wrote:
Azela wrote:Again, you haven't really dealt with any of my arguments. If you want to prove that tight bases alone cause excessive ties then you need to produce some form of evidence.

If you look at EGFL 2013, the bases are as tight, or perhaps even tighter than EGDL 2014 bases. Yet, in EGFL 2013 there was only 1 tie all season. Why? Because EGFL squads were not as even. What other explanation is there? Also, if you look at the squads who tied each other in EGFL 2013 it was the two squads who made finals in the end. Because they were evenly matched.

It's the evenness of the teams, coupled with their game style which leads to a tie. Does a tight base also play a role? Of course. But not to the degree which you are claiming.
EGDL squads have always been more even compared to EGFL squads.
Azela, should know this first hand as he's never won a real EGFL.
long long title how many chars? lets see 123 ok more? yes 60

We have created lots of YouTube videos just so you can achieve [...]

Another post test yes yes yes or no, maybe ni? :-/

The best flat phpBB theme around. Period. Fine craftmanship and [...]

Do you need a super MOD? Well here it is. chew on this

All you need is right here. Content tag, SEO, listing, Pizza and spaghetti [...]

Lasagna on me this time ok? I got plenty of cash

this should be fantastic. but what about links,images, bbcodes etc etc? [...]

Play Extreme Games on Subspace Continuum Today!